Feminism Focus Group
Facilitated by Professor Jacquelyn Litt
Transcribed by Rachel Burlingame
For more information on the Women's Studies program at Iowa State University (ISU), please visit: http://www.iastate.edu/~wsprogram/

In response to the questions I posed in last issue's STP, an ISU undergraduate course on "feminist activism" (fall 2002) transcribed a discussion about the following questions.

How did/does the anti-feminist backlash affect your interpretation of feminism? Do you identify as a feminist?
Why or why not?
How has feminism helped your life?
In what ways is feminism failing?
What are you doing to change it?
What role does feminism play in your everyday life?

JL Let's just start with [Krista's] first question. How did or does the anti-feminist backlash affect your interpretation of feminism? What did you all think about that?

Ellen I guess it makes me want to push harder for the feminist movement in the sense that maybe creating more of an appeal in the general public, making it seem more like it's applicable for daily life, not just something we need to be fighting about all the time. It's also discouraging because of the backlash that it seems like resources and media aren't as interested in feminism as they were for the second wave. The third wave hasn't really made a huge imprint in general consciousness.

JL What else? Or would anyone want to respond to Ellen about feeling the need to fight harder, push harder? Does anyone have thoughts like that?

Nikki Something that came to mind, the anti-feminist backlash doesn't necessarily affect my interpretation of feminism because I was interested enough in it to do my own research and find out exactly what feminism is. But what I have noticed is that it makes me sort of defensive all the time whenever I'm talking to people about feminism. I automatically feel like I'm on the defense. And I think that they automatically feel, people that I'm talking to who don't know about feminism, that because of this idea that was created during the backlash, they feel like I'm automatically on the offense or something like that. I think it has a lot to do with the way that I respond to people. I guess that's something I have to work on for myself, or work on in my feminist community, our communication with other people. I think that's one of the ways the backlash has affected me as a feminist.

Kristi I agree with that. I think it's just a lot harder to communicate or have conversations with people that are not necessarily in tune with all of what goes along with feminism and what it is. Because you have to clear up all the myths before you can actually have a discussion with them. So it makes it a lot more complicated to actually get your opinions across, or just to inform people because you have to break down all these barriers before you can actually do any of the informing.

Katie I also agree with both of you. I find myself having issues with the fact that you almost monitor what you say. Personally, I'm not identified as a feminist but I think that I probably monitor what I say to an extent and who I say it to. I do find it very frustrating and I'm disappointed in myself.

JL Where do you get these messages about needing to monitor yourself or feel defensive? Is there an example? Where do you get these vibes?

Magda I guess I would just have to say within peer groups I find it very hard. If I go out with a group of guys and they say something that I wouldn't find very nice to say about women in general, they'll turn around, "Oh, I'm sorry, sorry, sorry." Whereas within themselves, they don't look at what they're saying to each other. If I'm there they make a conscious effort to make sure they don't say something that would offend me. But I know that when I'm not there, they don't. For me to be there makes me kind of uncomfortable because now they have to watch what they say in front of me.

JL So they're monitoring themselves more when you're around. Is that a good thing?

Magda I think it is a good thing because I think they realize what they're saying when they actually have to stop and think about it first instead of just being guys in a group, etc.

JL But it also is uncomfortable in terms of interaction.

Magda I think it makes everybody uncomfortable in that situation.

Ellen I think that's even true within groups of females. If you're not already identified as feminists, it seems like there's a sense that you don't want to go out and be like, "I'm a feminist." And then the women if you don't know them very well, will be like, oh, kind of stand-offish because I think that there's some sort of idea that feminism is against men. That seems like one of the greatest sins that women can commit, when they're going against men, or something. So it's hard to explain or just declare yourself and be comfortable. And then you get back to the being defensive part. Like you don't even know how to explain yourself because there are so many prerequisites you have to go through before you can actually be like "and this is why we're feminists."

Nikki I have to constantly be making disclaimers because there is this idea of the femi-Nazi when I'm talking to just general people. So I'll make a statement and they'll come up with one example as to how that's not true. "Well men have to do…," you know what I mean. Yes, I say, but I'm talking about general trends. It takes me about three times longer to get my point across than is necessary because I have to make a disclaimer every time I want to say something so that people don't get offended by my statements. I think also there are terms that feminists use that other people don't fully understand the meaning of. Such as the term "patriarchy". And when I say patriarchy I'm thinking of this system, not men. But when you say it, people don't automatically know what that means so they get defensive. The patriarchy, don't talk about the patriarchy that way. So you have to sit there and explain all of the terms that you use and it takes forever to get your point across.

Ellen And sometimes when you just want to make it really simple it feels like you're not doing justice to yourself or to feminism. When you're just like, "feminism is about creating gender equality and trying to break down systematic inequalities in our society. " But you don't want to get into it because then you get into the whole thing, a three hour conversation.

John Another word that not many people understand that feminists use, is just the word feminist. People are like, "oh, feminists. That means anti-men or just for women." If they realize that it's just anti-disequality, just pro-egalitarian, anti-oppression, anti-patriarchal-- . . . Just something that is working for egalitarianism instead of thinking of it as anti-men--that would probably be pretty helpful.

Sarah I think it's just kind of sad that, I learned about feminism through the negativeness. Probably most people, like 89% of people, hear the bad things before they hear anything good. And most people, if they want to hear good things, they've got to go out of their way to learn about it. You hear the bad things first so you just go with that, and then when you hear something good you question it with the bad so it's just kind of hard for feminism.

JL Where did you hear the good things about feminism?

Sarah You learn about it generally: the right to vote, in history class. You hear the good side in that, but otherwise I pretty much had to go out of my way to read feminist writings.

Ellen I think most of the information that gets to the public and is popularized about feminism is put out by anti-feminist organizations because they have the money to put it out there and make it shiny. It's anti-feminist, it's not pro-feminist. Like Sarah said, you hear the negative things before the positive. It seems like the positive things are very institutionalized or very academic. So there's a break between the real world and the academic world. Then, if you don't actively search out what feminism is in literature or in your classes, it's hard to come across.

JL How do you think this backlash has affected your decisions about either taking a women's studies class or majoring in women's studies?

Magda I have to laugh because my dad is a total anti-feminist and I made him go buy books with me this semester. He looked at these books and he was like, "Why are you wasting your money on these kinds of things? When are you going to your man-hating class?" I get jokes like that all the time. I think once people take all the names off of everything and they stop boxing things up into sections and they realize what it's really about, I think they see it in a very different light. But whereas you say you're a women's studies minor or you're going to your women's studies class, automatically it's like, man-hating. I don't think people realize we don't sit around, I don't know what they think we do in forty-five minutes. I think for them to experience it would change a lot of minds.

JL Any other thoughts about how this effects your decision to take a women's studies class or major in women's studies?

Kristi I think, at least for me, because I'm a member of the Feminist Majority Leadership Alliance on campus, the organization was pretty much my first experience with organized feminism and feminists in general, not necessarily women's studies classes. I was pretty reluctant to become a member at the beginning because of all the negative stereotypes. But then I got involved with it through some other random means and kind of discovered feminism. After I got involved in the organization I was more able to take women's studies classes because I was more relaxed with the idea of women's studies and didn't think of them as being bad, man-hating, and all the other stereotypical things. I think it takes a lot of guts at the very beginning to say that this is something that you're interested in and to tell other people that this is something that you want to learn more about.

Catherine People told me that I was a feminist. I didn't really know what it meant to be a feminist until I started taking these courses. I heard all the negative stereotypes about the word but I was doing what the feminists have done for years, trying to always think of myself as equal with men. I don't think I ever thought that I was second best or anything. I guess I don't need a word to go with it. I don't think people should get hung up on that. If anything it should make them want to learn about it more.

JL This is a good occasion to go to question number two. Do you identify as a feminist? Why or why not?

Catherine I'd say, yes of course. I identify as a feminist but I don't think it's only a feminist either. I think there's more to feminism than the word. I don't know how to explain it. I guess I just have a problem with other people feeling uncomfortable because of me.

JL Does that mean you don't want to use it yourself?

Catherine No. But I would consider other people feminists when they're not. Because I didn't even know. I wouldn't want to hold that against anybody. I guess it does bother me a little bit to use the word. But I still do it.

Stephanie I struggle with labeling myself a feminist. I agree with a lot of the goals and ideals that feminism has. I don't really have a problem saying that I am a feminist. But where I do have a problem is when I'm in classes and there are people who have read all these feminist authors and have done all this activist work and I feel inadequate. I don't feel like I can call myself a feminist. I don't feel like I've done anything. I'm sitting next to somebody who is always talking in class and always has these great ideas, and has read all these authors. I sit there quiet. Yes, that makes me feel like I'm not (a feminist) sometimes.

JL So that within feminism you feel like there's a standard that you have to achieve to be able to call yourself a feminist.

Stephanie Yeah. JL I see a lot of nodding heads. Somebody else want to say something about that?

Ellen I guess it just kind of brings back the divide between the academic world and the real world. Like Stephanie said, you have to read all these authors and do this activist work in order to feel like an accomplished feminist. Whereas women that are possibly staying at home by choice or by circumstance that are raising their children with ideas of equality and self esteem are just as much a feminist but wouldn't feel comfortable calling themselves a feminist. That's a big problem that maybe our generation needs to address. Making feminism more applicable to life regardless of class or race or gender.

Nikki Maybe that's one other way that proves feminism sticks to the academic realm. Just in that it seems like that's where feminism is. We were talking about, you have to find these books and you have to read them. You have to expose yourself to it, because it's not out there. It's not in the media so much. If you're not an academic person, then it goes over you.

JL It sounds like what you're talking about is that there's so much stigma and negative association with feminism from the outside and then you get into these classes or groups and there's this implicit sort of standard that everyone is trying to live up to. Everyone worrying, am I a good enough feminist, am I not? In a sense it's a miracle that anyone calls themselves a feminist because it sounds like what I'm hearing is you get it from both sides. Or you're feeling it both sides.

Ellen Even in the activist world, most of the activist that are lobbyists in DC or advocates have a college education and experience beyond high school. Even in the activist world, the organizations have become more, like Jill said, professional organizations that are experts in the field.

Stephanie In some classes we talked about what it means to be a feminist and I see other ways that I am (being a feminist) just by making people aware of it and just by talking to people and letting them know. To me, that's my form of activism because as a student and being busy with daily activities I don't have the time or the expenses to do all the activist work. My main activism is letting people like my friends and family know about what feminism is and what other activists are doing.

JL That's a good question for other people to think about. What does activism mean to you?

Nikki I'm kind of changing it back to the original question real fast. Do I identify as a feminist, why or why not? I have always identified myself as a feminist from the time that I learned about it. But probably not for the best reason. I stumbled across feminism when I was about 16. In all honesty, I was pissed off. I was just pissed off. I was mad at being a woman, being taken advantage of. Sexually I had been raped. I fit the sort of perfect… I was a pommer in high school, wearing spandex, like a cheerleader, like pom-pom. So I was just mad at a lot of different things and the backlash actually, this negative stigma of feminism, is what brought me to it in the first place because I wanted something that could show me why I was so mad. I kept running across information that was talking about these systems of power and I could start to figure out why I was pissed. Does that make sense? Of course then I've gotten a lot further into it and have realized that you can make a lot of positive changes with it. You can actually use it in order to heal. Also at this point, I love it because it seems to me like it's my family and my history. Like being white, middle class from suburbia. I don't know much about my family history. When I'm sitting here and I'm reading books about historical feminists, I feel like those are my fore-mothers. I have this connection of pride with the movement. I also have a connection with the feminists that I'm in classes with. It's kind of this surrogate family here in college. Above and beyond believing in the ideology, I am very quick to claim the term feminist because of these reasons. For myself that's why I never had a problem claiming it.

Magda I can identify a lot with what Nikki was talking about. It made me realize my freshman year looking at how women were treated. My roommate had this very possessive boyfriend, and other friends were in this situation as well. All I kept thinking was, why do people let this happen? Why are you letting your friend get in this situation and why aren't you saying anything about it? Or we assume this is just how guys are. This is just how it should be. Why is that happening? Somebody has to say something. That's why I really became involved in classes. It's like a power thing for me, not a power thing. It just uplifts you a lot more. You want to analyze situations now looking at it from a different angle.

JL And the angle you take now compared to before is what?

Magda It's just taking individual situations and looking at what the problem is. Seeing how people interact and saying why is that interaction happening like that and why isn't anybody saying something about it? Not just letting things go. Looking somebody in the face and going, why are you treating that person like that? Why did you just say that? Why, why? Instead of, it's no big deal.

Ellen I totally agree with Megan and Nikki in the sense that I was raised in a really matriarchal family and then once I got out of high school, well, I also had some experiences in high school that made me angry and just feeling like there are some serious issues here that we need to work out in society. Coming into college, I've really seen a lot of those things amplified, the inequalities and people being very passive about wanting to change them or even identify them. I think what brought me to being a women's studies major is just being able to delve into social structures and, like Magda was saying, look at relationships and why people are doing these things and why we continue to do them. And we encourage their progression and enforcement in our society. Declaring myself as a women's studies major or as a feminist is very empowering. We're a very close knit community here and across the states and internationally which feels like another family. Even though it gets frustrating at times, it's very uplifting and hopeful that we're going to make some sort of a change or that there is possibility for big change.

JL Does anybody else want to say anything about [whether[ you identify with the feminists or what is activism to you? Should we go on to the third question? How has feminism helped your life? In what ways is feminism failing? What are you doing to change it?

Katie After taking all these classes, I think that, kind of going back to what you guys were saying earlier, it really does help me look at things in a broader picture and how there's so many different factors intersecting to cause the inequalities that are going on. But in the same sense, I find myself feeling somewhat hopeless because I don't know how to go about changing that. It's so deeply rooted I don't know how to even begin to start. Sometimes I wonder, maybe people that don't know anything about it are somewhat better off because they can go around being oblivious to it. Which of course is not a good thing and I'm not saying I want it to be [oblivious]. It just amazes me that when you talk to people and you say anything about feminism or women's rights and they just completely shut down. You can just physically see it. It's probably a sense of what does it cost to be aware of the situation in terms of psychologically and how that's going to make you feel about yourself and things of that nature. I think that's problematic for me as far as feminism goes. I don't really know what to do with that.

JL You don't have any answers yet?

Stephanie I agree a lot with Katie. I'm reading things about a lot of women and children in other countries, where they live in such poor conditions. It makes me thankful that I don't live in that situation. It makes me appreciate more what I have. But then at the same time, I do feel hopeless. I feel like I'm going to school. I'm going to get an education. I'm going to have a good job. I'm going to have all this stuff that I want, but those people aren't. I'm thinking, when do I have time to stop and help them out? I was born in India and my mom abandoned me and then I was adopted by a white family. If I would have lived over there, I would have lived on the streets for sure. I take for granted every day of the life that I have. I struggle with it. I'm glad I don't live in that situation but at the same time I feel hopeless. I don't know how to help other people.

Nikki Along those same lines, feminism has been a support system for me. I think that by being active as a feminist in some ways, and there might be some other issues here, but in some ways I'm kind of helping people in a way that I couldn't help myself when I was younger. If that makes sense? Ways that it's failing, I think it's really spread out right now as a movement. Specifically for me, it's once you know these things and you start to view the world in a particular way and you have made a point to dedicate your life to living in this feminist way, there are a lot of complications in your daily life that you have to find that balance. Do I freak out over this? Or is this something I let slide? What's more important? You cannot live in this society as a perfect feminist and not go crazy. There are some things you have to be a little bit relaxed on or you'll end up just insane with no friends.

JL Let's ask the question, how has feminism helped your life? Aside from making it more complicated, which I relate to, really, I know. Not knowing where to direct your energies is so much. How has it helped?

Kristi I think it's helped me become more confident in what I believe and to justify different things I believe in. So many people in the past and now also believe those things and it hasn't really destroyed them or anything. I think that it's helped me tie together different aspects of my life so I can read women's studies books or read my text books and then I can also somewhat be able to tie it into other parts of my life so it's more cohesive. It's also changed what I think I would be doing in life from not knowing at all what's going to happen after college to having somewhat of a passion to go in a certain direction. Or to at least shape my career around something that I'm interested in. It's kind of expanded my views on the world and things like that. It's also empowered me to have a passion and to go through life with it.

Stephanie In high school, I always said that I was pro choice, for abortion and things like that. I had a lot of friends and even my mom who disagreed with me. I think taking women's studies classes and being a feminist helps me justify why I think it's okay. I would say I think it's a woman's choice and then I never had anything else to back it up. But things you learn in women's studies classes like women who die because they get a back alley abortion or stuff like that, that helps me justify my reasoning. Also I think that stuff I've learned, too, is going to help me raise my children to be better people and more accepting of everybody. Just how we tell little girls to clean the house and do the laundry and cook and stuff. When I raise my kids, I'm going to have them do everything.

Ellen I think being a feminist has empowered my life in more ways than I can identify. It's given me a purpose really for life, to have a road or a path that I know that I want to follow. And I know that I want to be interested in for the rest of my life and study for the rest of my life. Or be active in the field. I feel like there's always been a lack of sisterhood. There's always been brotherhood with fraternities and things. I think there's a growing sense of sisterhood and I want to be part of that. I think that it's really powerful while we're combating these things we can't even identify in society, the inequalities and stuff.

John I have a question as far as the sisterhood…

Ellen Sorry, I didn't mean like sisterhood excluding men. It just came out that way.

John My question was, what do you think of the inclusion of men in feminist movements? Do you think it would be a problem at all including them too much and they'd want to take things over and run everything or something like that?

Ellen Is that directed towards me?

John Anybody can answer this.

Magda I don't know as a whole, but I think men being involved in the feminist movement is great. Just as an everyday type of thing like how to raise a family together, how to split workloads together. How to work together in a relationship where that was impossible 20 years ago. I grew up in a very male dominated family. My parents came from Poland. The greatest thing my mom ever said to me is, "I really admire how strong of a person you are. Because you will stand up for…" I don't go out and search for situations where I can be this feminist. It's just a day-to-day thing. If somebody says something or does something, I say: "I can't take that. I can't take how you're treating me. I can't take how you're talking to me. Please stop." Before I could never do that. And I know she can't. She just kind of takes things because, "I'm a woman. I'm submissive. I'll listen to what you have to say." And that's how she's led her life. She kind of looks at me and goes, "Wow, okay, I've never thought about doing that for my own and I really see you as an example of what I want to be." For me, that was the best thing that I've ever heard from my mom. For me, it's a day-to-day thing and how you want to be treated by other people. And how you influence other people in your life.

JL So it sounds like a real source of strength.

Magda Yes.

JL Does anybody feel they want to add anything more to that?

Catherine I'd just like to say, from the beginning we were saying how the academic and the real life isn't put together as one. I just think it's going to take time. I'm living my life how I want it to be. If everybody else does that and teaches it to their kids, it needs a few generations to get to where we want it to be. I don't think that it has failed. We're all here talking about it. I don't think it's failing at all. I just think it needs time.

JL One thing I'd like you to go around the room and just say what the most important feminist issue is to you. Just so we can give people a sense of where you are because Krista's really interested in what your generation perceives as key. I know what my generation does because that's most of the readings we have. What do you see as key, a key feminist issue? You want to start Catherine?

Catherine Sure. I want to be able to know that when I'm 50 years old I won't have necessarily had to get married to take care of myself. That's the biggest thing.

JL You mean economically?

Catherine Yes. I want to be able to do it myself. I shouldn't need someone else to take care of me. I'm fully capable of doing it.

Sarah The biggest thing with me in feminism is having both men and women, boys and girls, think that they can do anything that the other one can do. So that some girl doesn't think that she can't get a job in construction or something that is typically male oriented or even that males can't get a job as a nurse or whatever. The whole gender equality thing.

Katie That's basically what I was going to say. I think it's important to break down these dualisms that we have, these dichotomies between men and women and the ascribed characteristics that we put on sex and gender both. Otherwise I would say reproductive rights as well. I think that's important.

JL What in particular? I mean abortion, is there something in particular?

Katie I think it depends in my opinion on where you are because different places in the world have different needs related to reproductive rights. Here I would say obviously access to education within schools to contraceptives as well as access to abortion if you need it. But if you're going to live in a third world country, obviously just access to education and any kind of help that'd be possible at all and maybe just anmind to that. Because it's just not acceptable. The whole idea that it's just humanly unethical to force sterilization and things like that really bother me.

John I think the most important thing for the future of feminism would be to have more people know what it is and understand what it is. There seems to be a lot of problems just understanding that. That seems to be the basic stepping stone towards everything else.

Ross My main concern has always been the opposition of the binaries, like male and female, black and white, rich and poor, abled and disabled. It's always been something that I was really concerned about. I guess I've always taken backlash to be a sign of success in that area.

JL So you think things are better than [before]?

Ross Feminism as a word is an institution that is struggling. But feminist ideals are everywhere. I've seen O'Reilly on the O'Reilly Factor do something feminist before.

JL What did he do?

Ross He actually defended a domestic violence victim.

Katie I actually saw one episode that he had on a guy that was complaining about women using childcare. And he was like none of that would have happened without feminists. So I've seen him say some things, too, which he normally just, drives me up the wall.

Nikki I think it's hard to say what the most important issue is in feminism. So I'm going to pick one for today and it's going to be comprehensive sexual education at all age levels, obviously catered to that age level.

Ellen I find it hard to identify one specific issue but I'll pick two for today. Right now I'm really interested in violence against women, advocacy and education. Also, masculinities. I thought Nikki was going to say it so that's why I chose that one. Including men in the feminist movement more and more in our generation and in the generations to come. Because you can't change a societal structure with just one side of the story. I mean you can make progress but I think it's really interesting because there's almost as much as a push for a certain type of man as there is for a certain type of woman.

Kristi I think right now I'm pretty interested in societal interactions. Like what makes women do what they do or what makes men do what they do. It's kind of like masculinities. Looking at society in general and what different factors are playing in a certain situation. Different socialization issues and things like that are pretty interesting to me right now. I'm going in deeper than just the surface problems, trying to figure out the different layers of what's happened to different people or to society in general to make different issues more prevalent and how you can change those things. Or what level you have to go to to make any change.

Stephanie I think the most important issue for me is for women to have sexuality and reproductive rights. I think when a woman has control over her body, she can control other aspects of her life; like economics and education and job, [and] career. I think also then those other things fall into place and she can gain equality with men.

Magda I guess for me it's making people realize that they are feminists even though they don't think they are. A lot of what we talked about today. That you don't have to have the label or wear it on your sleeve or identify, if you are active in your own life even the small things make a difference.

JL An end to gender. Great. One last thing. Everyone say whatever you want about yourself in terms of a biography, where you were born or where you grew up or what made you who you are. Whatever you want. Just so we can attach this.

Stephanie I'm a senior and a journalism/mass communication with an emphasis in public relations. I also have a minor in English and Women's Studies.

Magda I'm a senior with a double major in animal science and journalism and a double emphasis in mass communication and public relations.

Catherine Political science and communication studies.

JL Where did you all grow up? Did you grow up in Iowa?

Sarah I'm a senior in computer engineering and I grew up in Minnesota.

Katie I have a bachelor's degree in both psychology and sociology. I'll have a minor in women's studies. I start graduate school for sociology in January. I was born in Iowa but I've never lived anywhere longer than five years so we went from Iowa to Michigan, Georgia, Illinois, and then I'm back here and my parents are in New Jersey. That's a pretty broad range of places.

John I just have one major, still working on that. I was born in Minnesota and raised in Iowa.

Ross I'm a senior in English and [undecipherable]. Raised around here, not far from Ames.

Nikki I am a junior in women's studies. I was raised in a suburb of St. Louis.

Ellen I'm a women's studies and environmental studies double major with a soon to be minor in sociology. I was raised in eastern Iowa.

Kristi I'm a junior in psychology and soon minor in women's studies. I was born in Iowa and grew up in Iowa, Oregon and Colorado.

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